Recode Decode, Hosted By Kara Swisher

The First Amendment, protecting free speech and free media, is a pillar of US law. It is, famously, the first one. We don’t usually tolerate government interference with speech. So it’s been disconcerting these first few weeks of the second Trump administration to realize suddenly, there’s a nonzero chance the government will punish our work. FCC Chairman Brendan Carr is absolutely determined to turn all that talk about the media being the enemy of the people into concrete legal action — incredibly serious, unprecedented attacks on free speech. Links:  Carr’s emerging agenda and its dangerous effects | Tech Policy Press Trump’s MAGA enforcer is having ‘the time of his life’ | The Daily Beast FCC to investigate Comcast for having DEI programs | The Verge Trump amends CBS ’60 Minutes’ lawsuit & demands $20 billion | LA Times No Apology Over Trump Lawsuit, ‘60 Minutes’ Top Producer Says | New York Times The FCC is investigating NPR and PBS | The Verge ABC News to pay $15 million to settle Trump de

Today, I’m talking with Senator Ron Wyden, a democrat and the senior senator from Oregon. He’s been in the Senate for almost 30 years, which makes him one of longest serving members of the institution. We scheduled this interview with Senator Wyden a while ago — he’s got a new book out called “It Takes Chutzpah: How to Fight Fearlessly for Progressive Change.”  But recent events made it vastly more important to talk about the state of our federal government – and specifically, what Elon Musk and DOGE are doing as they seize power in various federal agencies. So right up front and very bluntly, I wanted to ask Wyden: What is even going on? And can even he and his fellow senators keep up with it? Links:  It Takes Chutzpah | Hachette Book Group DOGE wreaked havoc on the government in just one week | Verge “For all practical purposes, I’d call that a coup.” | Verge Elon Musk’s presidency is just getting started | Decoder Elon Musk’s computer coup | Vergecast Can anyone stop President Musk? | Verge

Today, we’re discussing a very big problem with extremely far-reaching consequences: Do we still have a functional federal government here in the United States? And how much of it has been handed entirely to Elon Musk?  If you’ve been following the news, you know there’s a lot here that’s unfolding very fast, but I wanted to know how all these changes are affecting the people who’ve so far been the most newly supportive of Trump because they have the most to lose – the money, the billionaires. So I invited New York Times reporter Teddy Schleiffer, who’s been covering this closely every day since the inauguration, on the show to help break it down. Links:  Inside Musk's aggressive incursion into the federal government | NYT ‘The biggest heist in American history’: DC is just waking up to Musk’s takeover | Verge ‘Scared and betrayed’ — workers are reeling from chaos at federal agencies | Verge Treasury Department sued over DOGE takeover | Verge Can anyone stop President Musk? | Verge Elon Musk’s te

Andy Hunter is the CEO of Bookshop.org, a website he launched in 2020 that lets local bookshops sell all over the country. He always meant it to compete directly with Amazon, and the timing of that launch right into the teeth of the pandemic meant it was able to start strong and grow quickly. Now Bookshop is selling ebooks, which is another market hugely dominated by Amazon. For Andy and Bookshop to get what they want, they’re probably going to have to gear up for a big fight. It’s kind of the app store question all over again, just like the big cases Epic had against Apple and Google, and it's all prime Decoder territory. Links:  Bookshop is launching an ebook store to take on Amazon | The Verge As greenwashing soars, some question B Corp certification | BBC ‘The Goliath is Amazon’: After 100 years, B&N wants to go back to its roots | Decoder How Bookshop survives and thrives in Amazon’s world | Wired Apple to pay $450M after Supreme Court denies price-fixing appeal [2016] | The Verge Epic Game

Today, we’re talking about DeepSeek, and how the open source AI model built by a Chinese startup has completely upended the conventional wisdom around chatbots, what they can do, and how much they should cost to develop.  We’re also talking about Stargate, OpenAI’s new $500 billion data center venture that’s supposed to supercharge domestic AI infrastructure. Both stand in stark contrast with one another — and represent a new, escalating front in the US-China relationship and the geopolitics of AI. Verge senior AI reporter Kylie Robison joins me to break it all down.   Links:  Why everyone is freaking out about DeepSeek | Verge DeepSeek FAQ | Stratechery DeepSeek: all the news about the startup that’s shaking up AI stocks | Verge OpenAI and Softbank are starting a $500 billion AI data center company | Verge The AI spending frenzy is just getting started | Command Line After DeepSeek, VCs face questions about AI investments | NYT Satya Nadella on Stargate: ‘All I know is I’m good for my $80 bill

Today, I’m talking with Gary Smith, CEO of the networking company Ciena. You probably aren’t familiar with Ciena — the company isn’t really a household name. But every internet user has relied on the company’s products; Ciena makes the hardware and software that makes the fiber optic cables connecting the world light up with data.  That’s everything from local fiber networks for broadband ISPs to the massive undersea cables that connect continents. There’s a high probability that this very podcast came to you over a Ciena network, in fact — the company is everywhere. That means almost every single Decoder idea is right here, sitting on the backbone of the internet. Links:  What is WDM or DWDM? | Ciena Southern Cross achieves first 1 Tb/s Transmission across Pacific with Ciena | Ciena The invisible seafaring industry that keeps the internet afloat | Verge The internet really is a series of tubes | Vergecast Meta is building the ‘mother of all’ subsea cables | Verge Ciena CEO: Prepare for the AI wa

It’s been a messy couple of weeks for big tech companies as the second Trump administration kicks off an unprecedented era of how we think about who controls the internet. Right now, there's a major collision, or maybe merger, happening between billionaire power and state power, and everyone who uses tech to communicate — so, basically everyone — is stuck in the middle. I sat down with law professor and online speech expert Kate Klonick to break it all down.  Links:  Welcome to the era of gangster tech regulation | Verge Trump signs order refusing to enforce TikTok ban for 75 days | Verge Inside Zuckerberg’s sprint to remake Meta for Trump era | New York Times The internet’s future is looking bleaker by the day | Wired Meta is highlighting a splintering global approach to online speech | Verge Mark Zuckerberg lies about content moderation to Joe Rogan’s face | Verge Meta’s ‘tipping point’ is about aligning with power | WashPo Meta is preparing for an autocratic future | Tech Policy Press Met

Today, I’m talking with Matt Garman, the CEO of Amazon Web Services. Matt took over as CEO last June — you might recall that we had his predecessor Adam Selipsky on the show just over a year ago. That makes this episode terrific Decoder bait, since I love hearing how new CEOs will decide what to change and what to keep going after they’ve settled into their role. Links:  There’s no AI without the cloud, says AWS CEO Adam Selipsky | Decoder Amazon's AWS to invest $11 bln in Georgia to boost AI infrastructure | Reuters Netflix’s Ted Sarandos responds to Jake Paul-Mike Tyson glitches | THR The furious contest to unseat Nvidia as king of AI chips | NYT Amazon’s moonshot plan to rival Nvidia in AI chips | Bloomberg Amazon invests another $4 billion in Anthropic | The Verge Why Netflix never goes down | The Verge Sam Altman lowers the bar for AGI | The Verge Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/24102212 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Ou

Hello, Nilay here. We’re still on winter break; we’ll be back with brand-new Decoder interviews next week, and with our Thursday shows later this month. I’m excited for what we’ve got in the pipeline. I think you’re going to love it. For today, though, we’re sharing an episode of Peter Kafka’s new show Channels – he’s talking to disinformation researcher Renee DiResta about what’s going on with speech online in an era where platforms seem less inclined to moderate than ever. Peter’s an old friend and Renee is an expert on all this — there’s a lot of core Decoder themes in this one. Enjoy, and we’ll be back in a bit. Links:  Channels with Peter Kafka | Apple Podcasts The Stanford Internet Observatory is being dismantled | Platformer A major disinformation research center’s future looks uncertain | The Verge Supreme Court to hear case on how government talks to social platforms | The Verge GOP targets researchers who study disinformation ahead of 2024 Election | NYT She warned of ‘peer-to-peer misi

The Decoder team turns the tables on Nilay and makes him answer your burning listener questions in our end-of-year wrap up special. We also reflect on the year’s biggest Decoder themes, discuss some of the most popular feedback we’ve received, and tease what we have planned for next year.  Links:  Here we go: The Verge now has a subscription | The Verge How The Verge Works | The Vergecast Intuit asked us to delete part of this Decoder episode | Decoder What’s really behind Big Tech’s return-to-office mandates? | Decoder Rabbit CEO Jesse Lyu isn’t thinking too far ahead | Decoder Transparent Vice | The Verge UiPath CEO Daniel Dines thinks automation can fight the great resignation | Decoder Palmer Luckey, American Vulcan | Tablet  A revolution in how robots learn | The New Yorker Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder m

Today we’re talking about antitrust policy and tech, which is at a particularly weird moment as we enter the second Trump administration. A lot of tech policy is at a weird moment, actually, but antitrust might be the weirdest of them all — the pendulum has swung back and forth on antitrust policy pretty wildly over the past few years, and it’s about to swing again under Trump. So I asked Leah Nylen, an antitrust reporter for Bloomberg News and a leading expert on this subject, to come on the show and help break it all down.  Links:  Trump’s antitrust trio heralds Big Tech crackdown to continue | Bloomberg Trump picks FTC Commissioner Andrew Ferguson to lead the agency | Politico Trump picks Gail Slater to head Justice Department's antitrust division | Reuters Trump names Brendan Carr as his FCC leader | The Verge Trump’s FTC pick promises to go after ‘censorship’ from tech companies | The Verge Breaking down the DOJ’s plan to end Google’s search monopoly | The Verge US v. Google redux: all the

Alex Heath, Deputy Editor at The Verge, guest hosts this episode of Decoder featuring a live interview with Arm CEO Rene Haas about the future of AI and the semiconductor industry. The two discuss his thoughts on the struggles of Intel, the rumors Arm is developing its own AI chips to rival Nvidia’s, and his thoughts on the incoming Trump administration.  Links:  What Arm’s CEO makes of the Intel debacle | Command Line How Arm conquered the chip market without making a single chip | Decoder Arm could be the unexpected winner of the AI investment boom | FT Arm to reportedly launch AI chips by 2025 to capture explosive demand | CNBC Intel’s CEO is out after only three years | The Verge What happened to Intel? | The Verge Nvidia plans ARM-based PC platform to rival Intel, AMD | DigiTimes Qualcomm x Arm beef escalates | The Verge Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/24084728 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox an

We’ve been talking a lot this year about the changing internet, and what it’s doing to the media ecosystem — particularly journalism, which has taken a backseat to creators and influencers. But the tech platforms themselves have a lot of influence over what those creators and influencers make, too. If you’re a Decoder listener, you’ll recognize this as one of my common themes — the idea that the way we distribute media directly influences the media we make.  To break this all down, I invited media critic and labor union president Matt Pearce on the show to discuss a great blog he wrote titled “Lessons on media policy at the slaughter-bench of history.” We get into what mechanisms can be used to fund journalism, and how building a direct audience and exercising control over distribution is more pivotal than ever.  Links:  Lessons on media policy at the slaughter-bench of history | Matt Pearce Journalism's fight for survival in a postliterate democracy | Matt Pearce A deep dive into Google's shady (and

There’s something strange happening these days in the podcast world — in particular, the way companies that deal in money have been using podcasting as not just an entertainment medium, but a unique kind of hybrid of marketing, thought leadership, and networking. Guest host David Pierce and Vulture podcast critic Nick Quah break it all down.  Links:  How Venture Capitalists Use Podcasts to Lure in Founders | Vanity Fair Your Next Podcast Interview Might Be a Meeting In Disguise | Bloomberg Elliott launches podcast in attack ploy aimed at Southwest | Axios How podcasts became the new battleground state | Vulture In the “Podcast Election,” Trump talked to vastly more people | Edison Research Podcasts become politician magnets | Axios Founders of podcast ‘Acquired’ are raising an investment fund | GeekWire Podcaster-turned-VC Harry Stebbings raises $400m for third fund | Sifted Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox a

Today, I’m talking with Mustafa Suleyman, the CEO of Microsoft AI. Mustafa is a fascinating character in the world of AI — he’s been in and out of some pivotal companies like DeepMind, which he cofounded, and Google. He landed at Microsoft through a unique not-quite-acquisition deal of his latest startup, Inflection AI.  As CEO of Microsoft AI, Mustafa now oversees all of its consumer AI products, including the Copilot app, Bing, and even the Edge browser and MSN — two core components of the web experience that feel like they’re radically changing in a world of AI. The company has also a unique relationship with OpenAI, one that’s grown more complicated of late. That’s a lot of Decoder bait, and we really get into it.  Links:  Google DeepMind co-founder joins Microsoft as CEO of its new AI division | The Verge This is Big Tech’s playbook for swallowing the AI industry | Command Line The new AI deal: buy everything but the company | NYT Sam Altman lowers the bar for AGI | The Verge OpenAI seeks to u

AI investment is massive, but AI profits are not — and yet investors seem confident massive AI fundraising will one day translate into sizable AI profits. To break it down, Verge Deputy Editor Alex Heath guest hosts this episode of Decoder featuring Menlo Ventures partner Tim Tully and AirStreet Capital founder Nathan Benaich.  Links:  2024: The State of Generative AI in the Enterprise | Menlo Ventures State of AI Report | Nathan Benaich AI Index Report 2024 | Stanford HAL How companies are spending on AI right now | Tech Brew OpenAI Is growing fast and burning through piles of money | NYT Amazon to invest another $4 billion in OpenAI rival Anthropic | The Verge Agents are the future AI companies promise — and desperately need | The Verge Anthropic’s latest AI update can use a computer on its own | The Verge OpenAI reportedly plans to launch an AI agent early next year | The Verge Is AI hitting a wall? | Command Line Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Med

Bluesky has really taken off since the election, and since the Decoder team took some time off for Thanksgiving break, we felt it was a great time to bring back the interview we did earlier this year with Jay Graber, the CEO of Bluesky, the upstart competitor to Meta’s Threads and the platform formerly known as Twitter.  At the time, Bluesky was a pretty small platform. It had just reached 5 million users when Jay and I spoke. But since the election, Bluesky’s growth has absolutely skyrocketed to more than 20 million users, and it's starting to put real competitive pressure on Threads at the feature level. As Bluesky really ramps up, it seemed like a great time to engage with some of the core questions behind its design and see if Jay and her team can keep it up. Links:  Twitter’s heir apparent isn’t X or Threads — it’s Bluesky | The Verge Bluesky now has more than 20 million users | The Verge Bluesky moves deeper into moderation hell | The Verge Twitter is funding research into a decentralized versi

I spoke with GoDaddy CEO Aman Bhutani live on stage last week at an event hosted by Alix Partners in Palo Alto. GoDaddy is one of those companies that feels tied to an earlier era, but Aman’s been CEO since 2019, and he’s been building out what he calls adjacencies. The business of the web has really changed in the past few years: the walled-garden, social network era really took over in the past decade, and now huge changes to Google Search and the addition of generative AI have really put a massive strain on the very foundations of the open web. So I started out by asking Aman the question I’ve asked so many other guests on Decoder in the past year: What is the point of a website in 2024? Links:  If GoDaddy can turn the corner on sexism, who can’t? | New York Times (2017) Google Zero is here – now what? | Decoder Five for the Future – GoDaddy | WordPress.org 2024 is shaping up to be the smallest Black Friday ever | GoDaddy GoDaddy’s mission to get entrepreneurs up and running fast | Forbes GoDa

For nearly 20 years now, the web has been Google’s platform; we’ve all just lived on it. Google is constantly changing that platform — it launched another attempt to combat ‘parasite SEO’ just this week — and not all of those changes have worked well. Earlier this year I talked to a lot of people who have built on that platform. For a lot of small businesses and content creators, that’s suddenly not stable anymore. The number one question I have for anyone building things on someone else’s platform is: What are you going to do when that platform changes the rules? Links:  Google is cracking down on sites publishing parasite SEO content | The Verge How Google is killing independent sites like ours | HouseFresh HouseFresh has virtually disappeared from Google results. Now what? | HouseFresh Google Is Killing Retro Dodo & Other Independent Sites | Retro Dodo Google CEO Sundar Pichai on AI-powered search and the future of the web | The Verge Will AI break the internet? Or save it? | The New York Time

Hey everyone, it’s Nilay — Decoder is on a short break this week. We’ll be back with a special live interview episode on Monday of next week, and then regular programming will resume in December. I’m very excited for what we have coming up on the schedule.  But while we’re out, we’d like to highlight a great episode of a new podcast from our friends over at Vox called Explain It To Me. On this episode, host Jonquilyn Hill and her team tackle a decision that looms large for a lot of young people in America: How and when should you start saving for retirement — and will it even matter in a future of big, often scary uncertainties about work in the age of AI and the climate crisis?  Links:  Explain It To Me | Apple Podcasts Will the world end before I can retire? | Vox Vox launches Explain It to Me franchise to answer audience questions | Explain It To Me The doomers are wrong about humanity’s future — and its past | Vox Against doomerism | Vox End Times: A Brief Guide to the End of the World | Brya