Recode Decode, Hosted By Kara Swisher

My guest today is Bill Gates, co-founder and former CEO of Microsoft and chairman of the Gates Foundation. You may have noticed Bill in the news more lately — he’s been on something of a tour for the past few months talking about AI risk, and how crucial it is that we start taking this seriously. So I was excited to sit down with him and really dig into this subject. I came with many questions, about AI policy, the technical aspects of alignment, and what it means for future generations that we’re building something this disruptive and potentially dangerous.  Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  The turbulent AI era is here. The choices we make now are critical. | Bill Gates "OG" Bill Gates returns to wage war on AI risks | Axios Bill Gates’s blunt warning on AI | The Ezra Klein Show Ben Horowitz criticizes Bill Gates, Anthropic over AI safety | All-In Pod Does Anthropic think Claude is alive? Define ‘alive’ | The Verge Microsoft AI CEO says Anthropic is m

Illinois Gov. JB Pritzker,  has a lot of thoughts about AI, tech, and privacy. Those issues are driving a big and maybe kind of unexpected political realignment — and with the midterms coming up next month, and early voting already underway in a lot of places, the stakes are pretty high right now. And as he notes, some problems are just collective action problems that require a government. We can’t solve everything one at a time, or even one state at a time. And of course, I had to ask him: Are the Bears gonna stay in Illinois? Links:  How ordinary Utahns fought the biggest data center in the world  | The Verge New York Gov. Kathy Hochul thinks AI should be ‘less evil’  | Decoder YouTube CEO: ‘We’re focused on internal safety efforts’  | CNN Pritzker signs landmark AI regulation bill | Capitol News Illinois Pritzker establishes AI Cabinet amid calls for regulation | NPR Ilinois Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits:

My guest today is Walter Piecyk, a telecom analyst at LightShed Partners, and we’re discussing SpaceX’s plan to become a major wireless carrier. Last week, the company agreed to buy a big chunk of low-band spectrum in its bid to build “the world’s most advanced mobile network.” So I wanted to dig into whether SpaceX can pull this off, why Walt thinks the existing telecoms have fumbled their response to Starlink’s growing threat, and what happens when Elon Musk’s rocket company jumps headfirst into a business everyone loves to hate. Links:  SpaceX announces plan to become a ‘major mobile carrier’ | The Verge SpaceX has a plan. Do the telcos? | LightShed Partners EchoStar offloads satellite spectrum to SpaceX for $17 billion | The Verge FCC Grants SpaceX Approval for 15,000 Direct-to-Device Satellites | Via Satellite AT&T CEO says Elon Musk's SpaceX phone strategy not "viable" | Axios SpaceX Sends Telecom Providers a Shot Across the Bow | WSJ Verizon: No to an MVNO with Starlink | F

Today, I’m talking with Benn Jordan, musician, YouTuber, researcher, and investigative journalist. In the last couple of years, Benn has become a high-profile face in the creator and media spaces for his work investigating Flock Safety, the maker of automatic license plate readers and the software that powers them.  Benn recently testified in front of Congress at a hearing dedicated to Flock and other ALPR systems. So of course I wanted to dig into all of that with Benn, not just because of his role as a Flock critic, but because he’s also become in some ways the face of a new front in the broader debate about surveillance and privacy.  Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  Benn Jordan testifies in front of Senate | Benn Jordan (YouTube) Flock values their privacy. Oh well | Benn Jordan (YouTube) We Hacked Flock Safety Cameras in under 30 Seconds | Benn Jordan (YouTube) Lawmakers introduce multiple laws to curb Flock | 404 Media The fight over Flock and ot

Hey everybody, it’s Nilay. We’re off today for the holiday, and we’ll be back this Thursday with new episodes. In the meantime, we wanted to revisit a conversation from earlier this year I had with investigative journalist and New Yorker contributor Ronan Farrow, all about the in-depth feature on OpenAI CEO Sam Altman he co-authored with Andrew Marantz. The conversation holds up remarkably well, and I think it tells us a lot about the current moment, as calls for meaningful federal AI oversight have ground to a halt yet again. Enjoy. Links:  Sam Altman May Control Our Future—Can He Be Trusted? | The New Yorker Ronan Farrow on Sam Altman’s ‘unconstrained’ relationship with the truth | Decoder Does AI need an antitrust exemption so it doesn’t kill everyone? | Decoder Inside the suddenly explosive world of AI safety | The Verge Here’s what AI leaders are saying about Trump’s new safety plan | The Verge Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is

Acquiring Warner Bros. never goes well for anyone. AOL failed, AT&T failed, and Discovery failed — although it did succeed in flipping the assets to David Ellison’s Skydance. So I’m talking to Peter Kafka, Business Insider chief correspondent and host of Channels, to see if Skydance has a chance at succeeding where nobody else has yet. Spoiler alert: Peter doesn’t think Skydance has a clear business plan, either. But he’s got some really good guesses about what might come next. Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  CNN boss remains as Paramount, WBD merge into Skydance | The Verge Skydance CEOs: Layoffs will be coming | Variety Ynon Kriez, the new Skydance co-CEO | Business Insider Skydance sets leadership across games, experiences | Variety Paramount settles lawsuit blocking $110B WBD merger | The Verge  Larry Ellison’s big dumb gift to his large adult son | The Verge Weiss’ ratings wipeout | Status Decoder is a Signal Awards finalist in the Business c

My guest today is Hayden Field, The Verge’s senior AI reporter, and we're discussing the new wave of consumer friendly AI agents. AI enthusiasts have been using agents for a minute now, but the launch of Meta’s Muse, OpenAI’s Dots, and XAI’s Grok Bot has brought easy to use agents to millions.  Muse, notably, is free, while Dots is not, and you’ll hear Hayden and me get into why Meta, which still doesn't have a frontier model of its own, might have a meaningful edge here because it's much better at making and distributing consumer products. And wrapped up in this heated agent race are a lot of really big ideas — about AI capability, privacy, and trust.  Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  OpenAI’s new agent is a shot at Meta — but can it compete with free? | The Verge The AI Tamagotchis are coming | The Verge Muse escapes containment | 404 Media Meta’s Muse AI sent a YouTuber’s address to a stranger | The Verge It’s sinister that Meta’s Muse AI mascot is

California Sen. Adam Schiff sits on a bunch of the committees that do tech and AI oversight, so I really wanted to ask him about how we might regulate anything related to the tech industry at this moment in time. He started our conversation by talking about the self-dealing and corruption present all through our politics now — right against the backdrop of President Trump gathering AI CEOs to the White House to pinky-swear they'll try to keep AI safe. Read the ⁠full interview transcript on The Verge.⁠ Links:  How tech will self-police AI safety under Trump deal | The Verge Supreme Court ruling kneecaps federal regulators | The Verge Does AI need an antitrust exemption so it doesn’t kill everyone?  | Decoder Flock, Axon dodge Senate hearing | CNBC Trump admin illegally blacklisted Anthropic, court rules  | The Verge Decoder is a Signal Awards finalist in the Business category! You can vote to help us win here.  Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of D

Hey everybody, it’s Nilay. We’ve got a little bonus drop for you today — I was recently interviewed about AI safety by Shumita Basu for Apple News In Conversation, and I enjoyed the conversation so much I asked if we could share it with you all.  We’ve actually got a few bonus drops coming up this month; we’ve been having a lot of great conversations lately, and we want to get them out to you on the news cycle. And of course, nothing is moving as fast as the AI safety news cycle. So enjoy this one, and we’ll see you next time. Links:  Apple News In Conversation | Apple Podcasts Inside the suddenly explosive world of AI safety | The Verge Here’s what AI leaders are saying about Trump’s new safety plan | The Verge One company is at the center of a wave of rogue AI attacks | The Verge Microsoft AI CEO says AI threats are real, and Anthropic is making it worse | Decoder Does AI need an antitrust exemption so it doesn’t kill everyone? | Decoder Subscribe to The Verge⁠ to access the

Today I’m talking with Josh Dzieza, a longtime features writer here at The Verge, about a massive data center in Utah that does not exist, might never exist, and yet has already completely reshaped the politics of the entire state.  Josh just published a major feature this week on the struggling Stratos data center project in Utah backed by Shark Tank star Kevin O’Leary. So I invited Josh on the show to discuss what’s happening inside the AI industry’s infrastructure boom, inside the bipartisan backlash to data centers, and how the tech industry is running into the one obstacle it can’t seem to spend its way out of: local democracy.  Read the ⁠full interview transcript on The Verge⁠. Links:  The People of Utah vs. Kevin O'Leary | The Verge Adams — burdened by data center fallout — ousted by voters | Salt Lake Tribune ‘Shark Tank’ star sued by opponents he claimed were foreign agents| NYT Fox News apologizes for airing O’Leary claims about data centers | The Hill Kevin O’Leary

My guest today is Mike Cannon-Brookes, who is co-founder and CEO of Atlassian. Atlassian is one of those companies that every other company runs on — it makes important platform tools like Jira and Trello. This means Atlassian is also right in the middle of the way AI is changing how all these companies work.  Or, if you buy the idea of the so-called SaaSpocalypse, AI might just build all of these tools for you, destroying this entire category of businesses. Obviously, Mike had a lot of thoughts pushing back on this narrative, so we spent time really digging in and talking through what AI is doing to enterprise software.  Links:  How Australia became the test bed for tech regulation | Decoder (2021) Building a $45B company far from Silicon Valley’s ‘froth and bubbles’ | Semafor Atlassian CEO Mike Cannon-Brookes on Atlassian and AI | Stratechery How Atlassian shook off the 'SaaSpocalypse' for a big rally  | IBD Atlassian acquires The Browser Company, maker of the Arc brows

Cloudflare discovered in June that bots already make up more than half of internet traffic — and CEO Matthew Prince says that bots could outnumber humans a thousand to one within five years. That's a huge change to the internet, and if the web is going to keep existing, it needs a huge change to its business model. Can Cloudflare use its place in the ecosystem to direct the money back to the people who make content? Links:  How I choose which Cloudflare employees to replace with AI | Wall Street Journal Why Cloudflare CEO Matthew Prince is the internet’s unlikely defender | Decoder (2024) Cloudflare will now block AI crawlers by default | The Verge Patreon partners with Cloudflare to block AI crawlers | 404 Media Sony and Warner sue Anthropic in latest AI music lawsuit | Billboard Trump administration supports OpenAI in NYT copyright lawsuit  | The Verge Google Zero is here — now what? | The Verge (2024) Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Cr

It’s a big week for Meta. The company has its big Connect conference, and the new Muse AI agent appears to be an early hit. CEO Mark Zuckerberg has been doing a lot of interviews about it all — so of course we asked for him to be on Decoder. Meta declined, for whatever reason.  But luckily Mark just did a big interview with our friend and former colleague Alex Heath on the Sources podcast. So I figured we could highlight some moments from that conversation to point out some obvious gaps in what Mark is saying about Meta and hopefully inspire the next set of people who talk to him with some follow-up questions. Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  Mark Zuckerberg interview | Sources Podcast How Meta got everything it wanted in secret data center deal | New York Times Can you forget how you feel about Meta? | The Verge Zuck doesn’t want to press pause on AI | The Verge Meta glasses are a workplace menace | The Verge Mark Zuckerberg doesn’t understand how to l

Today, I’m talking with Bloomberg’s Mark Gurman, who is the world’s best-sourced Apple reporter. Earlier this month, Apple hosted its annual iPhone hardware event, and this event was special, for a number of reasons.  It was new Apple CEO John Ternus’ first major product launch. It was also the debut of the foldable iPhone Duo. So I wanted Mark on the show to explain why this event was so important, and how John Ternus’ Apple will look a lot different from Tim Cook’s.  Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  Apple iPhone Duo launch event: the 5 biggest announcements | The Verge The iPhone Duo is Apple’s first foldable | The Verge Tim Cook’s CEO-like pay package shows he isn’t going anywhere | Bloomberg Apple’s Phil Schiller steps down from running App Store | Bloomberg Apple’s new CEO will need to soon overhaul his management team | Bloomberg Apple’s Ternus takes the reins as CEO, with AI as job No. 1 | Bloomberg Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-

The biggest story in tech right now is the spiraling debate about AI safety and regulation. The CEOs of all these companies have issued various calls to slow down development and develop regulation, including asking for antitrust exemptions so they can all coordinate on safety issues. So to make sense of it all, I called Jonathan Kanter, the former antitrust chief for the U.S. Department of Justice in the Biden Administration. There's a lot going on, and we really got into the weeds of how all this regulation might work, and how it might interact with antitrust law, competition policy, and our relationship with China. Links:  Is Big Tech’s AI slowdown a safety pact or a cartel? | The Verge Inside the suddenly explosive world of AI safety | The Verge Execs and politicians on slowing down AI development | The Verge Microsoft AI CEO: AI threats are real, Anthropic makes it worse | The Verge Lina Khan: We don’t need new laws to prosecute AI CEOs | Gizmodo Subscribe to The Verg

Today, I’m talking with Mustafa Suleyman, the CEO of Microsoft AI. As you’re no doubt aware, the biggest story in tech right now is the spiraling debate about AI safety and regulation. So I really wanted to talk to Mustafa about what he thinks is real and not in AI safety, whether the concept of alignment itself is up to the task, and whether this industry needs to slow down before it kills us all.  Read the ⁠full interview transcript on The Verge⁠. Links:  A warning about ‘model welfare’ | Mustafa Suleyman Humanist AI Code of Conduct | Microsoft Is Big Tech’s AI slowdown a safety pact or a cartel? | The Verge A brief history of AI executives calling for regulation | The Verge What execs and politicians are saying about slowing down AI development | The Verge Anthropic CEO says it’s time to pump the brakes on AI | The Verge Microsoft’s AI chief says superintelligence is near, but won’t take your job | Decoder (2026) Mustafa Suleyman says conversational AI is the next web

Adam Conover is a familiar face to anyone who’s spent time on the internet. He got his start at CollegeHumor back in the day, before transitioning into cable TV with Adam Ruins Everything, then onto Netflix, and all the way back to YouTube again, where he posts videos and hosts a podcast. That is exactly the kind of career path that fascinates me, and it also happens to touch on basically every major Decoder theme there is.  Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  YouTube is making it harder to earn money on YouTube | The Verge Adam Conover regrets shilling Sam Altman’s World | The Verge Elon Musk is an idiot | Adam Conover How HBO’s creatives survived corporate chaos | Decoder YouTube’s Neal Mohan on the future for creators | Decoder (2021) Banning Trump was the right decision, says Instagram’s Mosseri | Decoder (2021) Ethics in journalism, with Ben Smith | Decoder Hank Green will gladly take billionaires’ money for education | Decoder Subscribe to

We’re back with another Decoder mailbag special. This time, we focused on feedback to Nilay’s “software brain” video essay, our ongoing coverage of AI and Big Tech backlash, surveillance, interviewing politicians ahead of the midterms, and more. Remember: we really do read every email, so please keep sending us your feedback, and letting us know what you think of our coverage and how we can improve.  Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  How to win — and lose — Decoder | Decoder Mailbag (2026) Nilay answers your burning Decoder questions | Decoder Mailbag (2025) Answering your biggest Decoder questions | Decoder Mailbag (2024) Sundar Pichai on AI, search, and the future of the web | Decoder (2026) The people do not yearn for automation | Decoder Bluesky’s new CEO wants a big tent, not a bubble | Decoder New York Governor Kathy Hochul thinks AI should be ‘less evil’ | Decoder Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits:

My guest today is Sonos CEO Tom Conrad. Tom was on the board at Sonos during the disastrous 2024 app redesign that threatened to crash the entire brand, and he took over as interim CEO to right the ship during that period. About a year ago, he took the permanent role.  I have been dying to have Tom on the show to talk about how the board decided to move on from previous CEO Patrick Spence, how he diagnosed the issues inside the company, and what decisions he made to fix them. Plus. Tom was willing to get into the weeds and nerd out with me, and I think this one is pretty fun because of it. Links:  After two years of turmoil, Sonos attempts a triumphant return | The Verge How Sonos’ Tom Conrad Is reshaping the brand after app disaster | Bloomberg An in-depth interview with Sonos interim CEO Tom Conrad | The Verge (2025) Sonos’ smart assistant is expanding from music to home control | The Verge Inside Sonos’ decision to sue Google — and how it won | Decoder (2022) Subscribe to Th

It’s an election year, with a shocking amount of tech policy at stake, and Gov.Hochul has taken strong positions on almost every major tech issue there is. You'll hear us talk about the settlement Meta reached with dozens of states, including New York, and about widespread age verification. We also discussed 3D printing ghost guns; surveillance and Flock cameras; the politics of building — or not building — AI data centers; and, of course, Mayor Zohran Mamdani. Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links: New Yorkers will need to verify their age for algorithmic feeds | The Verge The cat-and-mouse game over 3D-printed guns has begun | The Verge Hochul says she’s using AI to analyze ‘every single rule’ in New York | The Verge NY becomes the first state to enact a data center moratorium | The Verge Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder’s producers are