Recode Decode, Hosted By Kara Swisher

Today, I’m talking with Hinge founder and CEO Justin McLeod. Hinge is one of the biggest dating apps in the United States — it’s rivaled only by Tinder, and both are owned by the massive conglomerate Match Group, which has consolidated a huge chunk of the online dating ecosystem. Justin and I dug into that here, and we also explored some of the thorny issues around AI and dating, Hinge’s monetization, and data privacy in the second Trump administration. This is a fun one, with a whole lot going on. I think you’ll like it.  Read the full interview transcript here on The Verge. Links:  How We Do Things | Hinge Hinge’s First Gen Z Report | Hinge Hinge’s new AI feature judges your prompt responses | TechCrunch When Cupid Is a prying journalist | NYT / Modern Love Tinder CEO Faye Iosotaluno to step down in July | CNBC Match Group CEO Rascoff to lead struggling Tinder app | WSJ Replika CEO says it’s okay if we end up marrying AI chatbots | Decoder Apple ordered to keep web links

Hey everyone, it’s Nilay. Decoder is on a short summer break right now, but we’ll be back starting June 23 with new episodes, and we’re very excited for what we have on the schedule.  In the meantime, we have an episode from the excellent podcast Stay Tuned with Preet, with host and former U.S. Attorney Preet Bharara. Last month, Preet sat down with former FTC Chair Lina Khan for a pretty high-level discussion about antitrust, monopoly power, and the ongoing shift from both political parties in the United States toward more aggressive, bipartisan regulation of Big Tech. I think you’ll find it really interesting.    Links:  Stay Tuned with Preet | Apple Podcasts Google loses ad tech monopoly case | Verge Judge greenlights FTC’s antitrust suit against Amazon | Verge Judge rules that Google ‘is a monopolist’ in US antitrust case | Verge Illegally fired FTC commissioners on Meta, bribes, and fighting for privacy | Decoder The case for breaking up Google has never been stronger | Decoder

Today, I’m talking with Taskrabbit CEO Ania Smith. Taskrabbit is an interesting company; it’s known best for being a platform for hiring people to put together your furniture, so much so that Ikea acquired it in 2017. But Taskrabbit is still operating as a mostly independent company all these years later, and Ania is now in charge of maneuvering a fast-changing labor market during uncertain economic times and a potentially major AI disruption to the workforce on the horizon. Help us plan for the future of Decoder by filling out a brief survey: voxmedia.com/survey. We’d really appreciate it. Thanks! Links:  Airbnb CEO Brian Chesky wants to build the everything app | Decoder Uber CEO Dara Khosrowshahi is okay with reinventing the bus | Decoder Google’s Project Mariner | Google Uber is testing a service that lets you hire drivers for chores | Verge Taskrabbit CEO on using empathy in leadership | Fortune Taskrabbit takes over on-demand moving service Dolly | GeekWire Ikea integrates

Today, I’m talking with Runway CEO and co-founder Cris Valenzuela. This one’s special: Cris and I were live at an event in New York City last month hosted by Alix Partners, so you’ll hear the audience from time to time.  Runway is a leading AI video generation platform, and it’s getting better all the time. That puts Cris and his company on the same collision course with creators, artists, and copyright law as every other part of the AI industry — and you’ll hear Cris and I really get into all that here. Links:  AMC Networks inks deal with AI company Runway | Hollywood Reporter We made a film with AI. You’ll be blown away — and freaked out | WSJ Mark Zuckerberg just declared war on the entire advertising industry | Verge Runway says its latest AI video model can generate consistent scenes, people | Verge Runway releases an impressive new video-generating AI model | TechCrunch Runway Trained on Thousands of YouTube Videos Without Permission | 404 Media Runway partners with Lion

Today, I’m talking with Airbnb CEO Brian Chesky. This is Brian’s fourth time on the show, and he’s one of my favorite guests because he’s so clearly obsessed with things like company structure, design, and decision making. You know, Decoder stuff. This time, Brian came on to talk about the company’s new services product and the full-scale redesign and rebuild of the Airbnb app to support these broader ambitions. There’s a lot of fun, very Decoder-y stuff in this one. Read the full transcript here on The Verge.   Links:  Airbnb’s new app has all of your vacation extras in one place | Verge “Flat design is over” | Brian Chesky Airbnb Is in midlife crisis mode | Wired He revolutionized travel. Can Airbnb’s founder redesign your entire life? | WSJ Airbnb’s CEO explains how he helped Sam Altman during OpenAI fiasco | Fast Company A conversation with Airbnb’s Brian Chesky | Figma Jony Ive is bringing his design talents to Airbnb | Verge Airbnb CEO Brian Chesky on what founder mode

Today, I’m talking with journalist Megan Greenwell about her new book Bad Company: Private Equity and the Death of the American Dream. It comes out June 10th. It's fantastic and maddening in equal measure. I highly recommend it. In this episode, we discussed the genesis of Megan’s interest in the subject and its genesis in media — including her time as editor-in-chief of the website Deadspin, which underwent a very public PE takeover of its parent company. We also talk a lot about the healthcare industry, another major pillar of Megan’s book. I'm excited to hear what you think of this one. Links:  Bad Company | HarperCollins Private equity bought out your doctor and bankrupted Toys ‘R’ Us | Decoder Private equity Is gutting America — and getting away with it | NYT I was fired from Deadspin for refusing to ‘stick to sports’ | NYT Will private equity be the next ‘Big Short’? | Marketplace The profit-obsessed monster destroying American ERs | Vox Why your vet bill is so high | The

In what's become a bit of a Decoder tradition, I spoke with Google CEO Sundar Pichai in person after I/O. The conference this year was all about AI, particularly a slew of actual AI products, not just models and capabilities. To Sundar, this marks the beginning of a new era for search and the web overall. So I had to ask: what happens to the web when AI tools and eventually agents do most of the browsing for us? It was a very Decoder conversation. Read the full transcript here. Links:  Help us plan the future of Decoder! | AUDIENCE SURVEY The 15 biggest announcements at Google I/O 2025 | Verge We tried on Google’s prototype AI smart glasses | Verge AI Mode is obviously the future of Google Search | Verge News publishers call Google’s AI Mode ‘theft’ | Verge Details leak about Jony Ive’s OpenAI device | Verge DOJ says Google must sell Chrome to crack open monopoly | Verge Google Zero is here — now what? | Verge Uber CEO Dara Khosrowshahi is okay reinventing the bus | Dec

Today, I’m talking with Uber CEO Dara Khosrowshahi. We recorded this conversation on the same day Uber announced a big set of product updates, including new options for shared rides. Dara was in New York for all that, so he came to our studio and we did this one together, which always makes for a great episode.  If you’ve been listening to Decoder recently, you know that I’m very curious about how service apps like Uber will handle things like AI agents. Dara had a lot of thoughts there. There’s a lot in this one, and Dara didn’t hold back. I think you’re going to like it. Links:  Uber’s new bus-like feature is nearly 50 percent cheaper than UberX | Verge An interview with Dara Khosrowshahi | Stratechery Uber preps for Waymo’s robotaxi launch in Atlanta | Verge Uber ends year in the black for the first time ever | Verge Uber’s not out of the woods yet | Verge UberX Share brings carpooling back to NYC and eight other cities | Verge Uber CEO vows to be ‘hardcore’ about costs, slow

Today, I’m talking with Kevin Scott, the chief technology officer of Microsoft, and one of the company’s AI leaders. Kevin is one of my favorite repeat Decoder guests, and he joined the show this time to talk about the future of search.  Microsoft just announced an open-source tool for websites to integrate AI powered natural language search with just a little bit of effort, in a way that lets them actually run whatever models they want and keep control of their data. I saw some demos before Kevin and I chatted, and the improvements over the bad local search on most sites was obvious. So we talked about what this will mean for AI, for search engines, and for the future of the web.  Links:  Microsoft’s plan to fix the web: letting every website run AI search for cheap | Verge Microsoft Build 2025: news and announcements from the developer conference | Verge Introducing the Model Context Protocol | Anthropic Copyright Office head fired after reporting AI training isn’t always fair use | Ars

Today, I’m talking with Gerrit Kazmaier, the brand-new president of product and technology at Workday. Gerrit’s new on the job, maybe a little bit braver than most, and to his credit he came on the show and took the heat. We spent a lot of time talking about what enterprise software really is, what it does and why it has a reputation of being so deeply frustrating for so many people.  Links:  Workday names Gerrit Kazmaier president of product and technology | Workday AI Index Report | Stanford HAI IBM AI Study | IBM How generative AI will impact the future of work | Workday Workday launches platform for companies to manage all of their AI agents | TechCrunch Everyone hates Workday | Business Insider Judge: Workday must face novel AI bias lawsuit | Reuters Workday lays off 1,750, 8.5% of employees, in AI push | Associated Press Why Workday's CEO made a layoff decision to invest in AI | FastCompany Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/667538 Credits: Decoder is a p

We’re doing something a little different today — I asked my friend John Gruber of Daring Fireball to come on the show and talk about the future of Apple, and, importantly, the App Store. I wanted to talk about the most recent ruling in the Epic v. Apple legal saga. But I also wanted to talk about the big picture at Apple, and why the company seems to have found itself being hammered on all sides: by the developers that feel it’s become too greedy, by federal court judges that no longer trust it, and by regulators now threatening some of its major cash cows.  Links:  Judge rules, in excoriating decision, that Apple violated 2021 order | Daring Fireball Steve Jobs’ response on Section 3.3.1 | Tao Effect Blog Epic submitted Fortnite to Apple | Verge Eddy Cue is fighting to save Apple’s $20 billion paycheck from Google | Verge Epic is offering developers an alternative to Apple’s in-app purchases | Verge Epic says Fortnite is coming back to iOS in the US | Verge Apple files appeal t

Today, I’m talking with Paul Bascobert, who is the president of Reuters, as part of a special Thursday series we’re running this month to explore how leaders at some world’s biggest companies make decisions in such a rapidly changing environment. Reuters is a great company for us to kick off with, because it’s been around since 1851, when the hot technology enabling mass media was the telegraph.  Here, today, in 2025, the tech driving media has clearly changed more than a little bit. Distribution in a world full of iPhones and generative AI is a really different proposition than distributing media 50 years before the invention of the radio. So there’s a lot here, and you’ll hear Paul and I get deep into basically every Decoder theme there is. Links:  The Trust Principles | Reuters Brendan Carr’s FCC is an anti-consumer, rights-trampling harassment machine | Verge AP wins reinstatement to White House events | AP  NYT publisher AG Sulzberger on Trump, OpenAI and the economy | Channels Dow J

Hey everyone, it’s Nilay. We’re off today, but we’ll be back Thursday, so stay tuned. In the meantime, we have an excellent episode from Business Insider Chief Correspondent Peter Kafka, who hosts the media podcast Channels. In this episode, Peter sat down with one of the biggest names in journalism: New York Times publisher AG Sulzberger. It’s a fascinating conversation that covers some of the most pressing issues facing journalism and the news business today. We think you’ll like it.  Links: NYT publisher AG Sulzberger on Trump, OpenAI and the economy | Channels New York Times Reports 350,000 Additional Digital Subscribers | NYT IGN and CNET owner Ziff Davis sues OpenAI | Verge The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copyright infringement | Verge Dow Jones CEO Almar Latour on AI, press freedom, and the future of news | Decoder Platforms need the news — but they’re killing it | Decoder Why The Atlantic signed a deal with OpenAI | Decoder Platformer’s Casey Ne

A lot has happened in the first 100 days of Trump's second term. It’s nearly too much to keep up with, really, but we're going to try. Verge policy editor Adi Robertson joins Decoder this week to talk through six of the biggest stories and themes we're covering, from tariffs to TikTok to DOGE. Links:  Donald Trump’s first 100 days: all the news affecting the tech industry | Verge The DOGE days have just begun | Verge America is living in tariff limbo | Verge MAGA’s next wave of influencers saved TikTok | Verge Whatever happened to the Kids’ Online Safety Act? | Verge Brendan Carr’s FCC is an anti-consumer, rights-trampling harassment machine | Verge Environmental warning systems are suffering from Trump’s data purge | Verge Why Trump can’t be trusted with Congress’ new anti-deepfake bill | Decoder How Trump’s tariffs actually work on the ground | Decoder The FCC is a weapon in Trump’s war on free speech | Decoder Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and pa

A few days ago, I hosted a panel with FTC commissioners Rebecca Slaughter and Alvaro Bedoya at the IAPP Global Privacy Summit in Washington, DC. We recorded the discussion, and we’re bringing it to you today. Normal Decoder stuff, but these are anything but normal times. Becca and Alvaro were FTC commissioners until very recently, when President Donald Trump fired them — but he doesn't have that legal authority. They’re suing to get their jobs back, and they’re prepared to go all the way to SCOTUS if they have to. Links:  Trump fires Democratic FTC commissioners | The Verge Fired FTC commissioners sue Trump | The Verge The case for breaking up Google has never been stronger | The Verge The government doesn’t understand Meta | The Verge FTC v Meta live: updates from the battle for Instagram, WhatsApp | The Verge DOGE has arrived at the FTC | The Verge Inside Mark Zuckerberg’s failed negotiations with the FTC | Wall Street Journal FTC ch

Today we’re talking about the very real possibility that Google might be broken up by the United States government. And to do that, I’m talking to Jonathan Kanter, the former assistant attorney general for antitrust under the Biden administration. Kanter left the DOJ after Trump was elected, but he was the architect of the major antitrust cases the Trump administration continues to pursue against Google. That means he’s much more free to share his thoughts on what it took to build and win both of these cases and what should happen next. Links:  Google loses ad tech monopoly case | Verge Google is in more danger than ever of being broken up | Verge OpenAI tells judge it would buy Chrome from Google | Verge The high stakes of Google’s monopoly trial | Verge DOJ says Google must sell Chrome to crack open search monopoly | Verge Google makes history with rapid-fire antitrust losses | NYT Read the antitrust ruling against Google | NYT Google ad monopoly ruling's surprise winner: OpenAI | Axios

As CEO of Verizon's consumer division, Sowmyanarayan Sampath oversees the biggest part of the company, which does business with roughly a third of the entire country. He's a longtime Verge reader, so we  talked very directly about whether the huge 5G investment had actually paid off, and whether – whether the “race” we were supposedly in with China was actually worth it, and what kinds of new apps and services actually come to light. And while Verizon fought tooth and nail against regulations like net neutrality, the current Trump administration isn’t nearly as hands-off when it comes to things like  holding up deals because of DEI policies — something that’s happening to Verizon right now. So I had to ask Sampath if he was going to push back on that kind of government overreach as hard as Verizon has in the past. Links:  The US government makes a $42 million bet on OpenRAN | The Verge FCC scrutinizes Verizon’s $9.6 billion Frontier deal over DEI | USA Today Verizon offers a three-year price

One of the ways I’ve been trying to sort out the chaos of tariffs and trade wars is by talking to the people behind the software that makes the global trade system go. So today I wanted to bring back one of my favorite Decoder guests: Flexport CEO Ryan Petersen, whose software manages the logistics of moving things around the world, from factory to doorstep.  We didn’t get too much into the numbers — those tariff percentages keep changing — so instead Ryan and I really focused on how this system works, how it’s supposed to work, and how it’s working now, if it’s working at all.  Links:  Flexport Tariff Live Blog | Flexport US tariffs: how Trump’s tax is hitting Big Tech and beyond | Verge How much will Trump’s tariffs cost U.S. importers? | NYT How much are tariffs on Chinese goods? It’s tricky | NYT How Trump’s tariff chaos is already changing global trade | Decoder Can software simplify the supply chain? Ryan Petersen thinks so | Decoder Why Flexport CEO Ryan Petersen took his company back

Today, I’m talking with Vlad Tenev, the co-founder and CEO of Robinhood, which started as a way to open up stock trading. But the company’s ambitions have grown over time – and they’re getting bigger. Just a day before Vlad and I talked, Robinhood announced it would soon be offering bank accounts and wealth management services, which would really allow Robinhood to be involved with your money at every possible level.  So I was very interested to sit down with Vlad and really hash out where Robinhood is going, and why he’s so adamant that certain big ideas, like prediction markets based around everything from sports games to presidential elections, are going to play a pivotal role in the future of finance. Links:  Robinhood CEO Vlad Tenev on markets for everything | Hard Fork Robinhood is launching bank accounts | Verge Kalshi sues Nevada and New Jersey regulators | Esports Insider Kalshi CEO: ‘State law doesn’t really apply’ to us | TechCrunch Robinhood debuts a sports gambling hub | Verge The

Rohit Chopra was the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau head until the end of January, when President Donald Trump fired him and Elon Musk’s DOGE began trying to dismantle the agency. The CFPB has been pretty popular since it was founded in the wake of the 2008 financial crisis to protect consumers, so shutting it down has kicked off a bunch of controversies — not least of which was whether Trump and Musk even had the power to do it. This all led me to ask several times who made the decision to fire him, who is currently responsible for the various policies of our government, and whether any of those things add up to a clear plan. Some of the most powerful executives in the world answer questions like this on Decoder all the time. But Rohit just didn’t know — and that should probably be as worrying as anything. Links:  Trump fires CFPB director Rohit Chopra | Associated Press Trump orders CFPB to stop work, closes building | Associated Press CFPB workers reinstated after court order but still can’t