Cold War Conversations

Jack Downey was the longest-held prisoner of war in American history. He was a CIA officer captured in China during the Korean War and imprisoned for twenty-one years. I speak with Barry Werth the author of Prisoner of Lies - Jack Downey's Cold War. He details Downey’s story when the CIA recruited him as a new Yale graduate in the post-World War II years. In a violation of protocol, Downey took part in an airdrop that failed and was captured over China. US government policy forbade ever acknowledging the identity of spies, no matter the consequences. Washington invented a fictitious cover story and stood by it through four Administrations. As a result, Downey was imprisoned during the decades that Red China, as it was called, was considered by the US to be a hostile nation. This is a harrowing, chilling story of one man whose life is at the mercy of larger forces outside of his control; in Downey’s case as a pawn of the Cold War, and more specifically the Oval Office and the State Department. However ab

Beginning with the death of Stalin in 1953, the “sixties” era in the Soviet Union was just as vibrant and transformative as in the West. The ideological romanticism of the revolutionary years was revived, with a renewed emphasis on egalitarianism, equality, and the building of a communist utopia. Mass terror was reined in, great victories were won in the space race, Stalinist cultural dogmas were challenged, and young people danced to jazz and rock and roll. I speak with Robert Hornsby who has written "the Soviet Sixties" which examines this remarkable and surprising period, showing that, even as living standards rose, aspects of earlier days endured. Censorship and policing remained tight, and massacres during protests in Tbilisi and Novocherkassk, alongside invasions of Hungary and Czechoslovakia, showed the limits of reform. The rivalry with the United States reached perhaps its most volatile point, friendship with China turned to bitter enmity, and global decolonization opened up new horizons for th

Due to personal circumstances, I’ve been unable to produce a new episode this week, however, you will be aware of the many gems in the back catalogue and I have chosen one of my favourites today which is a rip-roaring story of service in the USAF with Rick Shreve an F111 pilot which I know you will enjoy. Normal service should be resumed next week. Rick Shreve was a US Air Force F 111 pilot based at RAF Lakenheath in the UK. He was trained to carry out nuclear as well as conventional missions against the Warsaw Pact forces in Europe. Rick describes his low-level training missions to attack targets in the Soviet Union and East Germany, where he recalls a near-fatal incident amongst the Scottish lochs. Rick was also part of one of the crews that flew on Operation El Dorado Canyon, the operation to bomb Libya in April 1986 in retaliation for the West Berlin discotheque bombing ten days earlier. Rick gives you a very frank and honest view of his role in the US Air Force and his approach to the huge responsib

Allan Little recounts his journey from his student days in Edinburgh to working as a journalist the front lines of Cold War history in Eastern Europe and beyond. In 1989 he found himself on the night shift at the BBC’s Today programme in London when the Berlin Wall fell. Witnessing the world change in real time Allan’s desire to be part of these monumental events grew stronger. He shares is his experience as a journalist during the Velvet Revolution in Czechoslovakia. Allan describes the electrifying atmosphere of Wenceslas Square and the fear of a violent crackdown. Allan also takes us to Romania during the fall of Nicolae Ceaușescu's brutal regime. He recounts in detail the chaos, the gunfire, and the bloody reality of the revolution’s human cost . The episode also delves into his time covering the 1991 Gulf War in Baghdad. He describes the eerie experience of watching the city being bombed from his hotel room and the resilience of the people around him. As the episode draws to a close, Allan reflects

Thomas Maier an investigative journalist is our guide to the shadowy world of organized crime and espionage where shares insights from his extensive research and writing, including his latest book and drama documentary "Mafia Spies," which explores the unlikely alliance between the CIA and the Mafia in their attempts to assassinate Fidel Castro. We dive into the lives of two central figures in "Mafia Spies": Sam Giancana and Johnny Roselli. Giancana, the head of the Chicago mob in the early 1960s, and Roselli, the mafia's fixer in Hollywood, had a complex relationship that intertwined with the glamorous world of celebrities and the dark underworld of organized crime. Thomas elaborates on Giancana's personal turmoil following the sudden death of his wife and his increasing involvement with Roselli in Las Vegas. We explore the intriguing character of Judy Campbell, who was introduced to Frank Sinatra and eventually to John F. Kennedy, becoming a key player in this intricate web of relationships. The episode

Bärbel was born in a village near Magdeburg in 1962, She explores her personal and professional life growing up in East Germany. We delve into her family's views on the East German government, her journey to becoming a teacher, and her experiences teaching English. We cover gender roles and the pressures to become a member of the communist party. Also discussed are the ideological and societal differences between East and West Germany, as well as the impact of the Berlin Wall's fall. Bärbel reflects on her career transition post-reunification, her family's life, the significant changes in Magdeburg and details her first trip to the UK. Highlighting the joy and challenges she faced, the episode provides a comprehensive insight into the daily life and career of a teacher in East Germany. Episode extras https://coldwarconversations.com/episode355/ The fight to preserve Cold War history continues and via a simple monthly donation, you will give me the ammunition to continue to preserve Cold War history.

Cold War RAF pilot Jeremy Lane, shares his gripping experiences, from nuclear bombing missions to a close encounter with a UFO. He was trained to fly the Canberra aircraft on nuclear bombing missions and describes how the American weaponry they would have used required dual control from both the President of the United States and the British Prime Minister. Jeremy also describes the Quick Reaction Alert (QRA) duties where aircraft were always on standby, ready to fly their nuclear missions at a moment's notice. He shares his experiences with escape and evasion training, designed to prepare pilots for the possibility of being shot down over enemy territory. The training was gruelling, involving everything from water survival exercises, evading capture in the wilderness and how to stand up to interrogation. It was a stark reminder of the risks these pilots faced daily. However, it wasn't all tension and drills. Life on the squadron had its moments of camaraderie and even humour. Our guest recounts how young

Jeremy Lane’s fascination for aviation was nurtured by countless childhood hours watching aircraft at Staverton Airport and North Weald. He shares his experiences flying the Jet Provost and later, the Canberra. He describes the capabilities of this versatile and iconic aircraft, from high-speed reconnaissance to its nuclear role. The Canberra's design, with its twin jet engines and rudimentary navigation equipment, required high skill and constant attention. The stories of flying at low levels, navigating with minimal aids, and the ever-present risk of engine failure provide a gripping insight into the life of an RAF pilot. This episode is a treasure trove of aviation history and personal anecdotes. Whether you're an aviation enthusiast or simply curious about the life of an RAF pilot, this episode offers a compelling and immersive experience. Tune in next week part 2 where we go into detail about the challenges of nuclear operations along the edge of the Iron Curtain. Episode extras https://coldwarconve

In this comprehensive narrative, Imre recounts his life from his birth in 1936 in Hungary to his emigration to the West after the 1956 Hungarian Revolution. He discusses the influence of his family’s Hungarian and German heritage, his father’s work in the oil industry, and the impact of World War II and communist rule on his upbringing. The account vividly describes his education, military training, and involvement in the 1956 Hungarian Revolution. He also highlights his subsequent escape to Austria and eventual resettlement in England including living with Bridget’s parents who featured in episode 322   Imre elaborates on the hardships faced by his family due to political changes and the repressive regime, as well as his educational and professional journey in the UK, culminating in a successful international career. His narrative provides a poignant look at the personal ramifications of leaving your country and the impact on relatives left behind. Episode extras https://coldwarconversations.com/episode352/

In this riveting account, Tilo recounts his experiences as an East German soldier during the final months of East Germany. He details the rising political awareness among soldiers, and his fear that his unit will be asked to shoot on demonstrators also provides a personal perspective on the pivotal moments leading up to and following the fall of the Berlin Wall, including attending massive protests and his first visit to West Berlin. Spurred by a broadcasted precedent of concession to striking soldiers in another barrack, Tilo and his comrades orchestrated what can only be described as a mutiny: a demand for rights, dignity, and acknowledgement of the transformative tide sweeping through East Germany. The fall of the Berlin Wall is often recounted in grand narratives of geopolitical shifts, but regular Cold War Conversations listeners will know that it is stories like Tilo's that remind us that behind monumental changes are individuals and communities. Episode extras here https://coldwarconversations.com/epis

This episode is brought to you by the CNN Original Series Secrets & Spies: A Nuclear Game which premieres 2nd June 2024 and is available now on BBC Iplayer). The series tracks the spies operating behind the scenes in the 1980s as the Cold War brings two superpowers to the brink of nuclear war. This razor-sharp series examines the tenuousness of global geopolitics during the Cold War and features my guest Ken Adelman who served as the Director of the U.S. Arms Control and Disarmament Agency for nearly five years during the Reagan administration. In our episode, Ken places you face to face with the Soviets during the tense nuclear arms negotiations at the 1986 Reykjavik Summit between President Reagan and Soviet Leader Mikhail Gorbachev. Planned as a short gathering it quickly developed into major international issues and the possibility of eliminating all nuclear weapons... Buy Ken's book here https://amzn.to/3R7ei2n Extra video content here https://coldwarconversations.com/episode350/ Episodes mentioned: 1983

Luca Trenta is an associate professor at Swansea University and has recently authored The President's Kill List: Assassination and US Foreign Policy Since 1945. We dig in detail into the contents of the book delving into the history of Cold War CIA operations including instances of electoral interference and assassination. Our conversation explores key historical episodes, including U.S. actions in Italy, Cuba, Chile, and assassinations in the context of the Cold War. Case studies feature notable figures such as Fidel Castro, Che Guevara, Salvador Allende and René Schneider. Our discussion includes the impact of investigative journalism, the intricacies of covert planning, and the eventual exposure of these actions. Luca also shares his personal story of a memorable dinner with former President Jimmy Carter. Episode extras here https://coldwarconversations.com/episode349/ The fight to preserve Cold War history continues and via a simple monthly donation, you will give me the ammunition to continue to pres

I’m a big fan of the History Daily podcast, where my good friend Lindsay Graham takes you back in time to explore a momentous moment that happened ‘on this day’ in history. Visit Historydaily.com or search History Daily in your podcast app to learn more. As an introduction to History Daily I have selected two Cold War-themed episodes that I know you will enjoy. The first is the story of the nuclear-powered submarine USS Scorpion which disappeared in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean with 99 men on board on May 22, 1968. The second is the story of the Velvet Revolution when on November 17, 1989. Police violently shut down a student demonstration in Prague, sparking a revolution that ended communist rule in Czechoslovakia. The fight to preserve Cold War history continues and via a simple monthly donation, you will give me the ammunition to continue to preserve Cold War history. You’ll become part of our community, get ad-free episodes, and get a sought-after CWC coaster as a thank you and you’ll bask in the

In this fascinating interview, Patrick D. Joyce recounts his unique experience growing up as the son of a U.S. diplomat during the Cold War. Living in the diplomatic community of the Soviet Union, Nicaragua, and Cuba, Patrick shares vivid memories of his father's career as a Soviet and linguistic expert, who rose to become Deputy Ambassador at both the Moscow and Havana US embassies. The discussion touches on the juxtaposition of ordinary family life in various U.S. embassies around the world alongside the extraordinary circumstances of espionage and international relations, highlighting the complexities and contradictions of living in hostile countries during tense political times. The narrative weaves through personal anecdotes, school experiences, interactions with local populations, and the evolving geopolitical landscape, providing a deeply personal lens on historical events. Episode extras here https://coldwarconversations.com/episode347/ The fight to preserve Cold War history continues and via a sim

Warning: This episode does cover the subject of suicide. If you need help please use these links: UK https://www.samaritans.org/how-we-can-help/contact-samaritan/ Rest of the World  https://findahelpline.com/i/iasp Tilo shares his raw and powerful testimony of a young man conscripted into the East German military at the height of Cold War tensions. He recounts the daunting prospect of being drafted into the border guards, an assignment he was determined to avoid at all costs due to his moral opposition to the Berlin Wall and the potential to be forced into shooting unarmed escapers. Tilo vividly describes the intense medical and psychological scrutiny he faced from military officials and shares the ingenious way he ensured he wouldn't be placed in the border guards, a tactic that involved a bold statement of conscience in front of a military panel. The episode also delves into the harsh realities of East German military life, from the ritual humiliations of new recruits to the tragic story of a comr

David McKay is a former Cold War special forces officer and author of Bubbleheads, SEALs and Wizards: America's Scottish Bastion in the Cold War. His book highlights the Scottish bases' significant role in supporting the US military over three decades. David brings his expertise into play, examining this intriguing story by reaching out to more than one hundred veterans and expert witnesses. Their contributions reveal the personal stories of history, not high-end diplomacy. We also delve into the espionage efforts mounted by the KGB against these bases through trawlers and agents on the ground. Among the many stories that David details are the nuclear missile submarine operations from Holy Loch, the large radio spy stations and reveals for the first time one of America’s most bizarre intelligence gathering activities of the early Cold War. Episode extras here https://coldwarconversations.com/episode345/ Buy the book and support us here https://uk.bookshop.org/a/1549/9781849955546 The fight to preserve Cold

Tilo offers an engaging and personal account of growing up in East Berlin before the fall of the Berlin Wall. He begins by describing his early childhood in a rundown building in Prenzlauer Berg before moving to a new prefab neighbourhood in Lichtenberg. Tilo’s grandfather on his mother’s side was a  pastor in the Lutheran church and second in command to a Bishop at the end of his career. His grandfather on his father’s side had been a teacher and had joined the Nazi party After the World War Two he was banned from working. Tilo’s family faced educational and career limitations due to their religious and political background compounded by the pervasive influence of the Stasi and party loyalty in determining one’s future. Tilo  also recounts experiences of attending school with a strong military and ideological indoctrination, including paramilitary training and pressure to join the National People's Army (NVA). Despite these challenges, he  describes a vibrant underground punk scene and moments of resistance

Bill Woodman is a former US Navy nuclear missile submarine commander, who shares his rich experiences from joining the US Naval Academy in 1964 to commanding two SSBN submarines, the USS James Monroe and the USS Alabama during the Cold War. Bill opens up about his initial aspirations, rigorous training at the Naval Academy, and his challenging interviews with the legendary Admiral Rickover who directed the original development of US naval nuclear propulsion and controlled its operations for three decades. He gives detailed insights into submarine operations, leadership challenges, operational readiness exercises, and the constant concern of being detected by enemy or friendly forces. We also delve into Bill's personal challenges and the pressures on submarine families, his final patrol commanding the USS Alabama, and reflections on movies and literature that accurately depict submarine life. Throughout, Bill shares anecdotes illustrating the camaraderie, mental fortitude, and technical prowess required to lea

Burt recounts the surreal experience of learning about Fisher's true identity from a newspaper headline, the subsequent FBI interrogations, and the emotional courtroom testimony where he struggled to reconcile his friendship with the stark reality of espionage. Burt's journey leads him to Moscow in a failed attempt to reconnect with Fisher, revealing a labyrinthine world of secrets and paranoia. He shares a heartfelt letter he left for Fisher, expressing regret and longing for a simpler time when art, not intrigue, was their common ground. As a testament to the personal connection they shared, Burt unveils a handcrafted wooden box—a wedding gift made by Fisher himself—symbolizing the genuine human connection that endured despite the shadowy world they navigated. This episode is a poignant exploration of identity, memory, and the complex human relationships that defy the black-and-white narrative of the Cold War. Episode extras here https://coldwarconversations.com/episode342 The fight to preserve Cold War hi

In a riveting episode that peels back the layers of Cold War espionage, we sit down with Burt, an artist who unwittingly befriended a man better known as Colonel Abel, the infamous Bridge of Spies Spy who was exchanged for shot down US U2 pilot Gary Powers. Burt knew Abel as Emil Goldfuss but his real name was Willie Fisher from Newcastle Upon Tyne in England. Fisher was a Soviet agent deeply embedded in the fabric of New York City's bustling art scene. Burt's tale unfolds in a studio building exclusively for artists, where he first crossed paths with Fisher in an old-fashioned elevator—an encounter that would mark the beginning of an unexpected friendship. Burt reminisces about their shared moments, from the peculiar request for a cup of turpentine to late-night discussions surrounded by the haze of cigarette smoke. He reflects on the nuances of their bond, the fatherly figure he saw in Fisher, and the mutual need for companionship that transcended the spy's professional obligations. Episode extras here h