Safety On Tap

One of the things I explore in my chat with John Lee today is the concept of bureaucracy.  As you'll hear, John has been a senior public servant, a bureaucrat, and I was curious to explore the linkage between being a bureaucrat, working in the bureaucracy, and the bureaucracy that is so often associated with health and safety. I talk a bit in the interview about him and his history, so I won't repeat that here, suffice it to say when I met John, I was leaning in and wanted to get to know him more, so you get to listen in too! Here's John: